Neutrality: Does It Exist?
Posted by ShelMay 2
Neutrality: the absence of a declared bias
In other words, neutrality means having no opinion and declining to take sides. ”I’m neutral about this. I refuse to take an opinion. Here are the options, and each has equal viability. I take no stand either way.”
Does this type of neutrality exist in reality? No. It’s unheard of. Really. Each, and all, of us has a bias, a philosophy in life that we follow. My own personal bias is simply this: ASL and English are of equal value. To be Deaf is great. I do not want to be hearing at all. No thank you very much. I like the way I am now.
Now, if you want to look at biases, take the hearing loss professionals who claim to be neutral as an example. These professionals are audiologists, speech pathologists, medical professionals who work with newly-diagnosed Deaf babies, early childhood educators. These people say, “Oh yes, we provide all options neutrally, and lay them out for the parents to look at.” (True, ASL is included, but in such a way that it is not emphasized, and overwhelmed by the array of other options. ASL is offered, but usually as a last option. )
SEE, Cued Speech, AVT/CI, Signed English, etc… all those options are geared for the development of the English language with emphasis on the hearing and speaking component,. Even Signed English places emphasis on the hearing and speaking as it includes voice, mouthing as well as signing. So does Simultaneous Communication and total communication that are included in the wide array of options. ASL, although seriously underemphasized, is offered on the table for the overwhelmed and bewildered parents to ponder.
Of course, the parents would go for the options that support the development of the English language solely. They would go for what is familiar to them: hearing and speaking. For further explanation on how the system is stacked in favour of the monolingual, hear-and-speak ideology, view Don G’s excellent vlog. That vlog shows that neutrality is nonexistent when it comes to offering options to parents of Deaf children.
If you want actual evidence that the hearing loss professionals are NOT neutral, just take a look at the large number of Deaf children that end up in the mainstream setting with cochlear implants, and taught to speak. Look at the smaller number of Deaf children that are enrolled in Deaf schools. That, to me, indicates a definite bias on the part of the hearing loss professionals who influence parental choices that impact their Deaf children.
Further evidence of that bias can also be seen in the recent passage of AB-2072 in California. Here is the link to this article that proves that neutrality DOESN’T exist on the part of the professionals behind the writing of AB-2072.
REMEMBER: There is no such thing as neutrality in real life!
78 comments
Comment by Elizabeth on May 2, 2010 at 1:59 pm
Great post. I think a lot has to do with the fact that at least 90% of deaf babies are born to hearing parents. Naturally, hearing parents want their children to speak their language and be more like them (hearing). Also, I do think that parents genuinely think they are doing what they think is the best for their child by going with the option that will help them speak and hear. Even if they were given a lot of useful good information about ASL, they will most likely prefer to find other ways to help their child hear and speak.
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Comment by Dianrez on May 2, 2010 at 3:00 pm
This made me think back to when our son was first diagnosed as profoundly deaf at a few weeks old. Only one option was offered: possible cochlear implant at a later date. We said NO, because at the time it was still experimental and unproven. (Even now the standard of proof is not high enough to satisfy me.)
What was interesting was that nothing further was offered. No discussion of schools, educational methods, resources, NOTHING. I had to research the schools myself, including my old alma mater, and obtain resources that way.
Did these early professionals assume that because we were deaf parents, we needed nothing more? Or because of our answer to cochlear implants apparently closing the door to all else?
That alone was telling enough. Parents aren’t getting the support they need, and God help them if they have no prior experience at all.
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 3:09 pm
I heard similar complaints from Deaf parents of Deaf children, Dianrez. If Deaf parents say no to CI or mainstreaming, no further support was offered to them. Even today I still hear of lack of support for Deaf parents other than pressure (intense, I might add) to implant their Deaf children, and the impression that the professionals knew more about the needs of their Deaf children than the Deaf parents themselves. Goes to prove that neutrality is just a facade to push a certain agenda. I agree with your last statement, Dianrez.
Comment by Elizabeth on May 2, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Dianrez-You probably assume right. They probably thought that since you are deaf yourself, you don’t need as much information. Geez, I am sorry you did not get the support you needed.
(e
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 3:14 pm
The desire for children to be like the parents is natural, but this need to make children FIT into Hearing society rather than allowing them to be who they are, just the way they are is quite troubling. Too many children have grown up with issues related to the lack of acceptance of their Deaf being, with attendant language and mental health issues.
Parents may be given useful information about ASL, the issue with North Americans right now is the heavy focus on monolingualism: ENGLISH ONLY. Spoken English is heavily emphasized, often at the cost of other aspects of the child that needs attention. Bilingualism SHOULD be accepted, but it is not (not even for the Spanish-speaking children of Hispanic ancestry… I digress). The point here is that there is INTENSE focus on monolingualism, and I believe that plays a huge part in what is happening in Deaf education.
Comment by DeafA on May 2, 2010 at 3:31 pm
That’s terrible. Deaf people and deaf children without Implant or hearing aids do have the right to early invention (is that proper wording for it?) Especially if deaf is concern about the reading level of their children.
For years, public school in my area did not want to help private schools with speech therapy or anything like that. I guess they realize how much catching up to do when children enter public schools. No matter what, they should help all children of different background because they are going to be their future taxpayers.
Comment by MM on May 2, 2010 at 3:34 pm
There is no such thing as a neutral view, it’s a total myth With respect, I fail to see this blog as neutral. Just an observation, you have a right to a view, but in saying it, you are then no longer neutral… neither is anyone responding.
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 2, 2010 at 3:45 pm
I disagree.
As a parent of a Deaf child who uses ASL and has also received a CI, I have a unique perspective. We chose ASL because it worked, worked quickly, and was 100% sure to work. My daughter was late id’ed but had a progressive loss, so it was assumed she would learn to speak fairly easily. It didn’t happen that way. She did very well with ASL, but not with spoken language, but we never wanted to give up on it, so we continued therapy and eventually got her a CI.
The CI changed the game. She is catching up very quickly, picking up tons of language from other kids and overhearing people talk, it is amazing! The CI worked for her in a way that hearing aids never could. It allowed her easy access to spoken language.
So, why do parents choose spoken language in droves over ASL? Is is the professionals fault? Are they not getting information? Are they judgemental and biased? I don’t believe so. I think they believe that spoken language will open up doors for their child, give them opportunities. And I agree. ASL is a beautiful full language, so is English. Both paths have pros and cons. It depends on your goals for your child.
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 4:31 pm
ah MM. I never claimed to be neutral in the first place. Please read my post again. It is the professionals’ claim to neutrality that I question. You and I finally agree on something! There’s no such a thing as neutrality.
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Miss Kat’s Mom, you are one of those strong-minded parents who are determined to go the bilingual route… give them BOTH ASL and English. You ask if it’s the professionals’ fault and whether the parents aren’t getting enough information. From where I am, I AM getting the message from parents in Canada that they are NOT getting enough information, and based on what I’ve seen, that information is biased. You are clearly fortunate enough to have professionals give you sufficient information. Such is not the case for so many parents. As you have seen from other commenters, Deaf parents get the short shrift if they don’t go the CI route. This certainly gives credence to the lack of neutrality that is obvious. If you have been following the AB-2072 situation, then you cannot say that those professionals behind that bill are neutral. Also, so many parents don’t have access to Deaf adults that would show them that bilinguality is the way to go. Hence, the information provided to them is slanted.
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 2, 2010 at 5:29 pm
I do think that the bill is good. I think it is fair and well written. I think it is a good step in a great direction.
I think the Deaf community is wrong in thinking that parents are only choosing the oral route because they don’t know about ASL. Many parents choose oralism inspite of knowing about the benefits of ASL. They believe that the benefits of spoken language outweigh the benefits of ASL.
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 5:45 pm
Please read Amy’s blog about disenfranchising the Deaf community in the process of writing AB-2072, Miss Kat’s Mom. Julie Rems-Smario explained the situation as it is quite well. http://www.deafeyeseeit.com/2010/04/29/californias-ab2072-disfranchisement-the-deaf-community/. The Deaf community was NOT consulted in the process at all. The conflict of interest involved in writing this bill is clear. It is NOT coalition between people of different perspective. It’s not a coalition of oralists and the Deaf community. It is the Oralists who are trying to decide what is best for the Deaf children WITHOUT the Deaf community’s involvement. This is not the only issue. I think Amy’s blog will give you a better idea of why AB-2072 is so controversial.
Comment by Joseph Pietro Riolo on May 2, 2010 at 6:09 pm
Well, how can you explain why the dictionaries have the word “neutrality” in them? It is because there are some people who believe that neutrality is possible. It is difficult to be neutral but it is not impossible.
Neutrality comes from the Latin word “neutralis” meaning “of neuter gender” that comes from the other Latin word “neuter” which is composed of two words: “ne” for “not” and “uter” for “which of two”. It is a very old word dating back to the 15th century. (All from Encarta World English Dictionary.) Apparently, some people during the past 500 years believed that neutrality was and is still possible.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Joseph, whether neutrality is in the dictionary ISN’T the point. The point is whether neutrality truly exists in reality. We can claim to be neutral but actions would indicate otherwise, as they always do. So, argue about the contents of my blog, rather than why neutrality is in the dictionary.
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 2, 2010 at 7:23 pm
I’ve read the blogs….so many of them. I simply disagree. I think the Deaf community is going about this in all the wrong ways. Alienating parents, especially of newly diagnosed little babies is all wrong. Show them why they should ADD ASL, not why they should choose ASL INSTEAD of spoken language.
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 7:32 pm
With due respect, Miss Kat’s Mom, none of us are telling parents to only choose ASL. That ASL-only option is a myth. We are advocating bilingualism. ASL AND English. There is no choosing one language over the other. Both are essential. Yet the people behind that bill (who are of the oralist persuasion) are in the business of monolinguality, speak-hear only ideology. We are advocating for BILINGUALITY. We are telling people to USE ASL as well as English. Hope this clears things up for you?
Comment by Candy on May 2, 2010 at 9:07 pm
Shel, I think we all need to understand the history behind California and all of this early hearing detection and how they have been disseminating information to parents. CA is a very big state with many resources and parents have gotten lost in the shuffle. Not to mention different centers with different philosophy (there’s the un-neutrality of it all). Fact is that many parents are not getting ALL of the information. Fact is many agencies/professionals are deciding what options a child should be receiving (they decide what the best fit is). The history behind it all will reveal a lot. When you say none of us are telling parents to use ASL. I believe you’re referring to you and ?? Who else? That statement is unfortunately not true for many hearing parents in CA. That is the reason why they contacted Mendoza. Truth be told, we hear about professionals telling parents to go for CI or oral route, what is astonishing is that there are professionals telling parents they have to learn ASL and didn’t bother to inform them of other options. Apparently it’s happening more so in the state of CA.
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 9:19 pm
“apparently” is the operative word, Candy. Where is your proof that professionals are telling parents to learn ASL and not informing them of other options? Where did you get this ASL-only option myth? NONE of us, including the Californian Deaf folk are telling people to go the monolingual approach and choose ASL to the exclusion of English. Personally, I find this very very difficult to believe. NONE of us are advocating the monolingual approach. In fact, we have been telling people to go the BILINGUAL approach… ASL and English!
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 2, 2010 at 10:03 pm
ASL and written English. Audism Free America says that CI’s are tools of oppression and that a parent choosing to require a child to wear their processor is “raping (their) soul”. They are horribly opposed to spoken language, and I’m not ok with that.
Oh, and I know a parent who was never told of CI’s and told that they must learn sign. They researched and chose AVT for their family and the children were very successful. http://www.cochlearimplantonline.com
Comment by Shel on May 2, 2010 at 10:30 pm
Miss Kat’s Mom, are you familiar with the history of oppression against the Deaf, and all that has happened, especially since Milan 1880? I’m going to be honest with you, and hopefully won’t antagonize you in the process.
I know you disagree, but try to put yourself in the shoes of Deaf people who have been told that ASL is not a real language, and that we cannot be equal to Hearing people unless they spoke and heard (something or anything). That we have been told that we are not smart unless we heard and spoke? That we are less than Hearing people? That we needed rescuing from the silence? That oralism was THE thing that would cure us of Deafness? That many experiments have been made in the name of making us hear, and failed?
Have you seen the DVD Audism Unveiled? If you have not, then it is a strongly recommended viewing. Some of the contents may bother you, but hopefully this will help you understand better where we are coming from. There are many of us who feel dehumanized by the quest to make us hear regardless of whether we actually acquire and develop a genuine language? Miss Kat’s Mom, in light of the countless encounters of audism (yes, I can label it thusly), can you TRULY blame the Deaf for viewing CI as yet another tool of oppression?
There are Deaf people who accept CIs as merely a piece of technology that can be useful, but there are those who view them as instruments of oppression. Have you seen the Missoula Moanings vlog? If not, I would encourage you to view this, and hear the grandmother’s story. Hopefully this will help you understand the strong reactions to the CI. I pray that you will open your mind and see things from our perspective. Just because CI works for your daughter (for me i think it’s more because your daughter already has a strong language base that is ASL) doesn’t mean it is great for all Deaf children, and in fact could be a nightmare.
As for cochlearimplantonline.com, I’m familiar with it, and had some debates with the blogger and her mother. The issue I have with them is they are bound and determined that oralism and CI is THE ONLY option for Deaf children, and do not believe that ASL would benefit Deaf children. They have the monolingual viewpoint, with which I strongly disagree. I’m a fluently bilingual individual with strong command of ASL and English. Also, as a Canadian, I value bilingualism, seeing as my country has two official languages (French and English) and research has shown that bilinguality actually improves the child’s intellectual.
This may be off the point, but it’s still related. I believe one HUGE problem with Americans is their monolingual (and monomodal) thinking… meaning English is the ONLY language worth learning, and to hear and speak is the only thing worth doing, and that to be Deaf and use ASL is unnatural.
Comment by Dianrez on May 2, 2010 at 11:06 pm
Miss Kat’s mom has been to both poles and her daughter is benefiting from her flexibility and willingness to explore all avenues.
She remains staunchly convinced of the value of ASL and early language base, but has recently been to programs offered by AVT institutions which gave her information on successful results of their programs. That they exist and that her daughter appears to be headed that way, too, is fortunate.
Her path is still unfinished and she continues to learn more as she and her child develop in the field. Miss Kat has been fortunate in several ways: she also had a solid base of language developed early through ASL, and was able to build upon it when started on AVT after her implant.
Inevitably Miss Kat’s mom will learn what we all know–that there are thousands of less than successful stories of hearing/speech development strategies for every hundred spectacularly successful stories. She will meet them along the way and her daughter will have friends among them. If Miss Kat’s mom makes this field her career, she will see them every day. And she will realize that the Cochlearimplantonline.com crowd represents the exceptions compared to the whole community.
However controversial and however loud the citizens of the d/hh community are about it, people still must see for themselves the truth and keep eyes open to all sides of it. Miss Kat’s mom has not closed her mind to all options and so will arrive at it on her own.
Comment by patti on May 2, 2010 at 11:18 pm
hi all
wow what a lively discussion
shel – thanks as always. ur posts are always well-thought out, honest and GOOD.
thank u.
joseph are you saying you are neutered? not that there is anything wrong with that but in this day and age – im just curious is all
re: the dictionary – G-d bless the dictionary – our home sweet home…
re: neutrality – as in the concept and not the printed words that may appear in the webster – even countries like Switzerland were not neutral during the Holocaust. Joseph im sure you have seen what Dante had to say about neutrality?
Miss Kat’s mom – name please? id much prefer to call u by ur own name than via ur daughter’s
I am a card carrying member of the AFA (just joking – we dont have membership cards but i am indeed “one of them”) and the AFA vlog re: CI’s is referring to a child’s right to say “NO” as it pertains to their own body.
We make it VERY clear that we dont have anything against folks who have CI or the parents who have chosen CI. We have a lot of concerns about the safety of CI (physical, social, cultural, emotional, linguistic etc) – hence our petition with the FDA.
There have been deaths as a result of CI surgery Miss Kat’s mom and that ain’t cool.
There have been chronic headaches YEARS later. There have been the inability to get a MRI scan to find out the source of these headaches because of the CI would self-destruct in the MRI – talk about catch 22. (i know i know they insert the magnet part a little closer to the skin now so it doesnt involve AS invasive of surgery as it would with the older models but here is the think miss kat’s mom – i care about ALL the people who have been implanted. Not just the stellar stars. i care about the ones who have died, i care about the ones who would need to undergo surgery to get it removed, i care about the ones who felt suicidal due to the pressure they experienced to get one from their family, i care about the parents who believe it is a must do for their child’s sake only to find out it doesnt work that well or that their child was happier being loved as a Deaf person than someone who had to WORK everyday really hard to be a less-deaf person, i care about everyone)
There have been gag orders. There have been lawsuits. There have been complications. There have been settlements out of court hush hush and there have been successful lawsuits against Advanced Bionics for their CIs having water moisture and SHOCKING the children. Shocking them miss kat’s mom!
That ain’t cool miss kat’s mom.
it ain’t cool.
we are happy it has never happened to miss kats. I personally pray it never does. But we can not abandon the folks who have had less than raving experiences with CI. We want answers miss kat’s mom and you should want them too cuz these devices hang out in your kids heads for a mighty long time. Things break down over time. Things leak, things malfunction, things just quit. We dont know the full of it cuz folks are too busy blocking this information – why is that miss. kat’s mom? Why is that?
RE: AFA being “horribly opposed to spoken communication” 0h dear miss kat’s mom that is such a falseHOOD u may just be headed towards very bad company. I myself use spoken communication. No one in AFA has ever shown me any disrespect because of spoken communication.
Where DO you get your information?
AFA is horribly opposed to AUDISM (even though its not in any published dictionary – it is in some online ones and in some dissertations and other scholarly books and academic documentaries). You can go to AFA’s blogspot for the definition of audism. We are not crazy about ORALISM (the systematic denial of access to a fully natural and accessible language for Deaf children by means of forcing them to speak and listen ONLY) – that exclusive system just ain’t cool in our books.
call us crazy if u like miss kat’s mom but please dont call us things that are not true.
Re; Ur daughter – i did read a blog entry u made a while back of how miss kat’s was faring when her CI was not quite working up to par – she was having trouble, yes. it is times like these or when they dont work or when they are lemons ( i have had a few cars that are lemons – much cheaper than CI but still lemons) and when these things dont work – what’s a infant to do, Miss Kat’s mom? did u know they are implanting 3 mo old infants in europe now miss kat’s mom?
now with ur daughter – thankfully u have been raising her bilingually – that is GRAND but it is atypical.
When the audiologists and CI industry and specialists come up with a CI/ASL program that offers certification and has an academy for CI/ASL then I will be able to believe that the system is NOT skewed to an oral / aural only bent.
Ya know due to history repeating itself when folks keep denying the truth, I’ll have to stick to what i have seen out there and what i know to be true (have you visited the AG Bell academy webpage for AVT training – guideline #3 Miss Kat’s mom?)
I apologize for my really strong tone here but i have seen u pop up all over the place over the years and u have not always been speaking the truth miss kat’s mom.
soul force / truth force all the way says Gandhi
I do love and cherish you and your daughter as well as your other family members
Again Shel – many thanks
sorry for my long reply
peace
patti
Comment by Candy on May 3, 2010 at 12:02 am
Shel, there is proof that it has been happening. If asked, many parents will have documentation to show that they were told to go the ASL route. Maybe I shouldn’t have used the word apparently, but it has happened. I see you find that hard to believe. I did too. But, now I believe it did happen.
Comment by pharmacy technician on May 3, 2010 at 12:02 am
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Comment by Candy on May 3, 2010 at 12:19 am
Patti,
Do you have documentation that we can view? Documentations and links to evidence that there have been serious damages to an individual’s quality of life? How many and what? So, far I have not found anything other than the need for kids to have meningitist shots so they don’t get it because the bacterial kind can be fatal. The consent waiver form warns of infections which is typical in any surgery. Facial paralysis has been taken cared of by changing where they cut to avoid I think the fifth nerve or something like that. I think after 20 plus years, it has become safer than ever. But, if you can prove me wrong by showing me evidence, then I will bow out. It has to be something within the past five years because there are trial and errors in the beginning that have already been corrected.
If you are so concern, why don’t you blog about it and include real evidence for all to see? If I had that at my fingertips, I’d report it as a blogger. Why don’t you?
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[...] Neutrality: Does It Exist? :Shel: A Deaf Canadian's Thoughts [...]
Comment by White Ghost on May 3, 2010 at 8:23 am
Not again! Another 3rd argument is now a moot. You want only ONE option….ASL and English, that’s it.
Have you visited the link that shows the states to provide the unbiased information from many various organizations? If you did not visit over there, here’s the link.
http://communicatewithyourchild.org
Go click on the right side, “My baby has a hearing loss.” It shows the states you can research. Do your homework. Options now has invaded the USA. How can you beat them? You can use one of the aliens’ gun to shoot the options.
Neutrality is now in the works. It still exists. Be nice to Miss Kat’s Mom.
I’m heading to the dreamgirlz’ blogs.
Comment by MarkSpizer on May 3, 2010 at 9:10 am
great post as usual!
Comment by Dianrez on May 3, 2010 at 10:49 am
Ironically, this reminds me of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. No one can see (or feel) the whole elephant and each has his own opinion.
Comment by Don G. on May 3, 2010 at 10:52 am
WHOOOOOO! Patti! GREAT response! I couldn’t have said it better! *STANDING OVATION*
Comment by MM on May 3, 2010 at 5:00 pm
“Ironically, this reminds me of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. No one can see (or feel) the whole elephant and each has his own opinion.”
Just pray you aren’t the one standing at the rear end…. wondering what it is will be the least of your worries
Comment by John F. Egbert on May 3, 2010 at 6:41 pm
Patti,
Great comment!!! I enjoyed reading it!
I hope MM keeps up with his prayers to keep whomever pushing us towards the rear of the elephant.
It is really sad that Deaf community have been living through this for too long.
Comment by Joseph Pietro Riolo on May 3, 2010 at 6:56 pm
Unlike you, I believe that neutrality can exist in reality. We have the referees who promise not to take any side while they are refereeing the games. We have the judges in the courts who promise not to take any side with prejudice. We have elders and arbitrators who decide the disputes without favoring any sides. It is because of some people who believe in neutrality that peace is made possible for the people.
I am fine with your opinion that neutrality does not exist in reality but it does not mean that your opinion is any more valid than my perspective. I am not going to force you to believe in neutrality but I do wonder how you can interact with your students, for example, without favoring some students over other students. Is it ever possible that you can be neutral to all of your students so that they can be treated fairly? I wonder.
Just for the sake of argument, let’s assume that neutrality does not exist in reality. How are you going to recommend the parents of deaf and hard-of-hearing babies to do? Will you be biased and recommend them to go to the professionals who favor bilingualism over any other options? Will you be biased enough to steer the parents away from the professionals who offer many options other than and in addition to bilingualism? By the same principle, do you approve that other professionals can be as biased as you are and can steer parents toward their own options?
You don’t have to answer these questions. I am not like Socrates who would expect the questions to be answered.
To Miss Kat’s Mom: Don’t feel that you have to tell or reveal your true name. Anonymity and pseudonym are very old but extremely important American values that intertwine with the First Amendment. That, unfortunately, sometimes comes into conflict with the Deaf culture that greatly frowns on them, at least for some members of the culture.
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
Comment by Shel on May 3, 2010 at 7:15 pm
JPR, the comments under my post has proven beyond any doubt that NOT one individual is neutral when it comes to Deaf babies. Are you saying that professionals that deal with parents of Deaf/HH babies are neutral? I’m sorry, but based on what I have seen of the system both in USA and Canada, I have NOT seen true neutrality in existence. Each professional has a bias and so does the system that professional works for! For the bias, all you have to do is examine AB-2072, and who the people behind that bill are. Can you truly tell me they are NEUTRAL? Hogwash. There is a serious conflict of interest at play here.
Comment by Shel on May 3, 2010 at 7:18 pm
Yeah. Dianrez… your parable of the blind men and the elephant proves my point exactly. Neutrality is a myth especially when it comes to Deaf babies.
MM, would you volunteer to stand at the rear of the elephant? ;D There are times when I feel like Deaf people are at that end anyway! Thank God for the shower. For that I would need to go to the other end, but for that to happen both the elephant and I would have to be in the river, eh?
Comment by John F. Egbert on May 3, 2010 at 7:37 pm
Joseph Pietro Riolo,
Neutrality gives the person the right to go further of their mission according to their status such as wealth with money like doctors and people with writing skills to convince the normal society of how their mission is neutral but still subtly biased.
Joseph, I would respect your opinion if you are bilingually fluency but you do not have the skills with ASL communication modality skills so therefore in your heart, you still don’t get it, and with my perspective about you, I think you are between a rock and a hard place, hearing reality and Deaf reality. I was once a person lost like you and now I am found….normal and happy.
Comment by Shel on May 3, 2010 at 8:11 pm
WG, Thank you for leaving your comment here and for the link you sent me to the beautiful website communicatewithyourchild.org.
1) I didn’t say that I want only ONE option. I want bilingualism… There is a difference. What’s wrong with wanting your Deaf child to have TWO languages… ASL and English? As a Canadian, I’m fortunate enough to grow up in a country that has two official languages, so that means I get to be TRILINGUAL if I so wish! Dieu de Remerciement!
2) You claim that the website communicatewithyourchild.org is unbiased. You also claim that link provides unbiased information from “many various organizations”. Let me disabuse you (and everyone else) of that notion.
Is the Communicate With Your Child website UNBIASED?
a) Is t bilingual? Check! (English and Spanish!)
b) It has audio for those who may have reading issues… accessible for hearing? CHECK!
c) ASL translations? (NO WHERE TO BE FOUND.)
d) FOCUS: the ability to hear words and songs.
e) FOCUS: LANGUAGE (ASL)… WHERE CAN IT BE FOUND? ZILCH and NADA
Checked “My Baby has a hearing loss” and clicked on states as you advised, WG. Guess what? The number of hearing loss professional organizations like AGBADHH, NICDC, Hearing Association, Let them Hear Foundation, etc etc FAR OUTWEIGH the number of Deaf-centered, or at least ASL-friendly organizations.
Let’s see… I clicked on http://www.raisingdeafkids.org which is on the list for any of the states you click on: Go to Communication choices, then you will see:
- Auditory-Oral, (Emphasis: Hearing/speaking)
-Auditory-Verbal (Emphasis: Hearing/Speaking)
-Bilingual-Bicultural (ASL/ENGLISH)
-Cued Speech (Emphasis: Hearing/speaking)
-Total Communication (signing and talking with voice simultaneously… STILL EMPHASIZE SPEAKING AND HEARING)
Considering the evidence here: There’s an overwhelming emphasis on hearing and speaking, and little focus on ASL.
Do you call that link unbiased, and do you still call the information from many states unbiased, WG?
This STILL proves my point about the absence of neutrality in the system, and overwhelming bias in favour of the hear and speak ideology here!
Comment by White Ghost on May 3, 2010 at 8:42 pm
JPR, “I am fine with your opinion that neutrality does not exist in reality but it does not mean that your opinion is more valid than any perspective.” Question is: Based on the medical and ethnical technology, a couple who desires to have a baby boy used the genetic engineering to avoid any diseases or deaf/hearing loss. Is it the biased situation? Perhaps it would be, maybe not. However, the carried couple should use it for a medical and particular reason.
That’s true, JPR. It makes me wonder how can we neutral in the boundary zone? Thus, it still does exist.
Well, Shel, May 3, 7:15 PM — Why would you think if there is a conflict of interest at play here? Is it because they (Non-profit deaf organizations) were not called to sponsor the AB 2072? We cannot see the behind-the-scene. We should not have jumped any conclusions.
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 3, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Just because there are several options for learning spoken language, does not mean it is being favored. They list ASL-English bi-bi, right with everything else. Do you want them to write it several times? I don’t understand…
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 3, 2010 at 8:53 pm
Also, yes, I have seen the film. I get it. I understand that many Deaf people have been oppressed, on large and small scale. So many have been failed linguistically and educationally. But, what are they doing about it? Yelling? Calling parents names? Protesting with bullhorns outside of childrens schools? None of those things will work.
We need to build bridges with parents. Show them that the Deaf community is a welcoming, loving place. Show them successful adults who are bilingual in the way they want for their children. Don’t tell them that CI’s don’t work. They know it’s not true. They see that they work in their lives and homes everyday. Don’t say that their children will never become oral. The research isn’t on your side. Show the parents the benefits of adding ASL to their lives. ASL only, (meaning without spoken language) or even ASL first, spoken language later, will never fly. Parents want their children to have everything, every opportunity, they will not choose to ignore spoken language. (They may choose not to use ASL because they don’t understand what it can do for them.)
Comment by patti on May 3, 2010 at 9:28 pm
candy
AFA has a petition out seeking answers and documentation
It is incredibly hard to get these FACTS but we have some. We want more – the full picture.
We care about the folks who got their CI before 5 years ago too – Candy. There experiences are VERY important and valid. We also care about the folks 5 years out from now and 10 years out from now and 15 years out from now who are getting CI today.
CI ARE NOT CONSISTENTLY EFFECTIVE
The keynote presenter, Dr. David Pisoni, at AG Bell conference in St. Louis expressed the need for the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to look into the effectiveness of Cochlear Implants.
In his address he explained: Efficacy means “Does the CI work” (run or operate) Answer is yes. Effectiveness means “Does the CI effectively work for everyone” Answer is NO.
FDA needs to measure effectiveness not just efficacy
Perhaps you’d be interested in watching the video of Emma moaning in missoula
hope you will help us find some of the answers to these unexamined questions
Peace
Patti
Comment by patti on May 3, 2010 at 10:02 pm
Miss Kat’s Mom – may i call you MKM?
Just feels very awkward to be addressing you via your daughter’s name
re: CA AB 2072 – it is an amendment to CA HEALTH AND SAFETY CODE SECTION 124115-124120.5
In this code there is no mention of sign language – just under 124116:
Communication services, including, but not limited to, aural
rehabilitation, speech, language, social, and psychological services.
There is no mention of bilingualism or ASL.
In the amendment that folks are contending, it is mandating early intervention via CA Early start program as well as electronic information on specific communication options (this to be given out by an audiologist or other specialist).
In looking over the CA Starting Out Together – An Early Intervention Guide for Families – there is no mention of ASL or sign language. Tons of other expected stuff re: hearing technology and services etc – its 44 pages long. Only bi-bi thing is a Spanish and English poster.
You end with the comment (They may choose not to use ASL because they don’t understand what it can do for them.)
Please help me understand why it is such a hard concept for folks to understand – “my child can no hear but my child can see. there is a visual language that is 100% fully accessible and natural for my child. I think I’ll go with oral / aural only?” this does not compute for me unless perhaps some folks are thinking of what it will do for them over what it will do for their child.
You might be interested in the DBC’s petition re: bilingualism – biculturalism
The scale has been forever tipped in the favor of the dominant culture – this has been the case for African-Americans, Women, Gays/Lesibians/Bi/Transgenders, religions minorities etc – and still folks stand and push onward to ring that bell of liberty and equality.
You are a mom – how can we help folks understand the obvious – that all people were created equal and they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights – the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
with no other population – are the babies forced to start out forever lurching and grasping at syllables that slide through the air and often past their ears. Where as the sign for “milk, more, and mommy” can be readily understood via the eyes or the hands (for Deaf-blind folks) and requires no work beyond natural language acquisition.
Peace
Patti
Comment by patti on May 3, 2010 at 10:08 pm
oh also MKM
no one has EVER proposed an ASL only education
not even back in the days before AG Bell showed up on the Deaf education landscape did any program that i know of BAN articulation or English from the educational experience of a Deaf child.
But today ASL and visual acuity is still being BANNED from the classrooms and livingrooms of Deaf children’s lives … STILL
help us break the cycle
thanks
peace
patti
Comment by Shel on May 3, 2010 at 10:12 pm
Miss Kat’s Mom,
You say parents don’t understand what ASL can do for kids. PRECISELY. You ask if the choice for ASL-English Bi-bi choice should be written several times.
I’m trying to think of the best way to help you understand why we see a bias in the information being given to parents. It’s not a matter of writing ASL-ENGLISH Bi-bi several times over. It’s not just what is being stated, it’s also what is NOT being stated. There are subliminal messages all over that lends weight to the bias.
Let me use WG’s website link which I just analyzed as an example. Let’s analyze it further. On the ultra-professional Communicate With Your Child website, they provide links to the Spanish version (translation) of the information. This shows that the people who developed this website recognizes Spanish as a language, and see it as necessary, especially since the USA has a large Hispanic populace.
Contrast the availability of the Spanish version with the absence of ASL translation on that website. This shows an ignorance (and often devaluation) of ASL as a valid language. Of course parents WON’T understand ASL or what it can do for Deaf children if they are not exposed to it at all! No-where on ANY of the links provided from that website, to other websites would you see ASL translation of the information provided in either English or Spanish (at least in the USA)!
If there are no ASL translations available on any of the website, but there are Spanish translations and audio available on the text, what does that tell parents about ASL? The subliminal message is that ASL is not important nor even essential for Deaf children. It’s easy to go for options that promote hear-and-speak ideology as it’s ALL OVER the links and various glitzy websites. It’s both overt AND covert.
Now, if you view this website, Canadian Hearing Society, you will see English, French, ASL and LSQ on that website. This shows that the CHS organization values and recognizes all four as valid languages. It’s through this website, for example, that parents CAN begin to understand ASL and why it is so important for Deaf children to have ASL. The subliminal message on the CHS website is that ASL is valid and important. Parents will be much more likely to see ASL in a more positive light.
Do you see the difference? It is all in the subliminal messages… messages given below the threshold of conscious perception. The bias is there alright, but people are unconscious of it because they DON’T analyze the information, how it’s presented, nor the absence of pertinent information.
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 3, 2010 at 10:15 pm
But deaf kids can hear. Many deaf children, especially those with CI’s, are hearing, understanding, and discriminating all the sounds in the English language. They are hearing and understanding at whisper levels. To say “they can’t hear but can see” just isn’t true. My daughter, and many others, do not struggle to hear or speak. It takes time to learn the language, but they are certainly not “lurching” or “grasping” at things that pass by their ears. It is that kind of misinformation that pushes parents away.
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 3, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Oh, and why would there be an ASL version of the website? Bilingual ASL users should be reading English. Why on earth would they translate it?
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 3, 2010 at 10:22 pm
Yes, spoken language is banned in the classrooms of bi-bi school. You MUST be voice off at all times. (Because spoken language isn’t accessable to all persons in the class.) That means spoken language is equally as banned as ASL in an oral class. (Which by the way, no one has EVER told me that my child could not sign in ANY of her oral classes. They may not sign back, but she has never been put down, or in trouble, or admonished for signing at her home oral school, a private oral school in another city, at John Tracy Clinic, or at Central Institute for the Deaf).
Comment by Shel on May 3, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Miss Kat’s Mom,
I could ask this: “Oh, and why would there be a Spanish version of the website? Bilingual Spanish speakers/users should be reading English. Why on earth would they translate it?” ASL and Spanish are both languages, for goodness’s sake! That is why there are ASL and Spanish versions of the information that is written in English.
I could also ask “Oh, and why would there be an English version of the website? Bilingual English speakers/users should be reading (insert language). Why on earth would they translate it?
Comment by patti on May 3, 2010 at 10:29 pm
oh miss kats is hearing sweet
my bad – i guess i didnt understand about deaf hearing kids
so can u help me understand why it is u hang out in Deaf read
i mean ur kid can hear freely easily with any bumps in the road
can u help me understand why u blogged about some of the problems she has from time to time
does she still have an IEP – what for? she is a hearingdeaf girl now
re: the grasping and lurching – im a partially Deaf person MKM – au naturale – and i have seen many a presentations by the CI specialists and audiologists and CI users who have said “we are basically hard of hearing at best” which is what i am MKM
i know lurching and grasping
i also know acting
im a pretty good actor when i have to be
i also know parental placebo effect too MKM
so can we return to this TRUTH that there has NEVER been an ASL program that banishes and excludes English but there are PLENTY of ENGLISH ONLY programs for Deaf children – programs practicing exclusivity yet calling themselves “options”
scratching me head MKM
much peace
patti
Comment by patti on May 3, 2010 at 10:50 pm
also re: all the oral programs allowing Miss kat’s to sign
that is super cool
have u written a letter to the AG Bell academy that their AVT guideline #3 is not being enforced and is unnecessary?
can u help me understand why she is still in oral programs when she can hear and does not grasping or lurching?
why isnt she in a hearing school since she is a hearingdeaf girl?
im just a wee bit confused
re: bi-bi programs not banning spoken language – i was speaking of ENGLISH. re: spoken language – it is my understanding that they allow it to be practiced within their hallowed halls – even by the practionaries and specialists called Speech therapists
where i have yet to see any ASL specialist at john tracy or CID or the other PRIVATE OPTION programs
ok nighty nighty for me
look forward to more illuminations
while im being very sassy here MKM cuz we have done this dance before – i do appreciate the dialogue and ur fortitude
Peace
Patti
Comment by Barb DiGi on May 3, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Shel,
Excellent messages as always! You have raised a valid point about how the information or “options” is being shared. ASL is a minority in this English speaking country and is not provided by a reliable source that is not presented fairly. The proportion within the source material is not balanced evenly.
So why not add the following to make it more even:
ASL-Literacy English
ASL-Literacy English-Auditory
ASL- Literacy English -Oracy- Auditory
The brochure just gives undue weight to a minor point of view which is why it does not make it neutral. It should explain the critical evaluations of particular viewpoints based on reliable sources and that brochure did not even come from the input from an authentic Deaf-friendly community.
Don, may I join you the standing ovation for Patti? She has presented fairly well! I am just floored how she addresses the issue hoping to clarify the myths that have been framed upon the AFA, DBC, the opponents of AB2072, supporters of bilingual approach, etc. We are not the bad guys but who are here to welcome with open arms and embrace them.
I have seen a group of Deaf children with cis from ages 3 to 15 and witnessed damages done to them when they were removed from a bilingual environment. They got lagged behind in language and performed lower academic level. Also they experienced emotional trauma, rejection, depression, anxiety, also physical symptoms such as frequent migraine headaches and tics. Cis did not work for them and I can tell you this, Miss Kat’s Mom. For you to tell us not to say that ci don’t work is like telling us to ignore and brush away the issue under the rug. On the other hand, it worked for some so whew, they turned out “fine” presumably they are at par with language and literacy and that their social and emotional are age-appropriate.
I don’t know where you get the idea that we should not say that their children will never become oral. I know Shel, Patti, Don and I here have never made such statement. This is where I feel being attacked for something that we did not say. It is not a nice thing to say.
MKM, I am surprised that you said that “ASL first, spoken language later will never fly”. My daughter chose not to wear hearing aids until recently at the age 11 and is starting to become more proficient in speaking as she was able to pick up the words FAST because she has a solid language foundation. She has already skipped a grade and she will be in 7th grade at the age 11. Oh, haven’t you heard about Rachel Coleman at Signing Times who has a Deaf daughter raising in ASL first environment then got a ci who had developed spoken English fairly well and she won the spelling bee at the age 10?
Thank you for inspiring me to write a blog soon but time has been my enemy! Peace out!
Barb
Comment by Don G. on May 3, 2010 at 11:01 pm
Picture the information on sites like “Communicate with Your Child” or AGB’s website like a scale. Ok, let’s forget AGB. They are clearly and specifically biased. But on sites where they are supposed to be “neutral”, what we see is a lot of heavy weights being placed on one side (Hearing aids, CI, AVT, English-Only methodologies) while on the other side are a few feathers (ASL, maybe signed English, and only token mentions at that). What will happen to the scale? It comes down on the “heavier” side with a thud.
Now, parents looking at these websites, and seeing all this purportedly “unbiased” information, what happens? THUD! All these parents running out to get CI and AVT for their children. After all, there is all this COOL technology out there to “cure” my child, and all these doctors and audiologists can’t POSSIBLY be wrong!
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 3, 2010 at 11:44 pm
My daughter is still learning English. Just because I can hear Japanese, doesn’t mean I know the language. She is still pretty far behind, so she is learning the language.
Her teachers do AV therapy, but all oral school are auditory oral, not auditory verbal. Because they group deaf kids together, not just with hearing kids, they are automatically NOT AV.
Also, my daughter does get pull out by an ASL specialist, even though she is in an oral school. It is in her IEP. Her teachers may not sign to her, but they understand her signing, and they respond to her. Yes, spoken language is allowed in a bi-bi school in pullout only. It is forbidden in the classroom. As I said before ASL is not any more forbidden in an oral school than spoken language is in a bi-bi school. My daughter, and several kids in her class, sign at school everyday. No, they don’t emphasis ASL and ASL development, because that is not the goal. The goal is fluent spoken language through listening and speaking.
I still don’t understand the ASL translation thing. ASL does not have a written form so ALL ASL users should read and write English. Why would the written word need translated?
As for Rachel Coleman, I have met and spoken with her several times. Leah attended the same bi-bi school as my daughter, and she was then mainstreamed at the school that we hope my daughter will attend when she is mainstreamed. Leah is bilingual with ASL and spoken language. She is exactly what we hope Miss Kat will be. But, again, I do not believe that the research bares out waiting until the child is fluent in ASL to begin auditory stimulation and therapy. The longer you wait, the further behind the child is, the bigger the gap you need to make up.
There are bumps in the road. It takes time for Miss Kat to learn a new language. She needs re-MAPed sometimes. But really, the problems are troubles are few and far between. Miss Kat has gained so much from her CI. She can now walk up to any other child at the park and ask them to play. They understand her, and she understands them. She no longer needs me to interpret for her, to always explain “She can’t hear you, and she can’t talk. Just show her what you wan to play, and she’ll understand.” She can communicate with her extended family, and she isn’t left out in group play anymore.
Why wouldn’t I want these things for my child? Why wouldn’t any parent?
Comment by InsaneMisha on May 4, 2010 at 1:10 am
Miss Kat’s mom….
In your 10:15PM post, you said, I quote, “But deaf kids can hear. Many deaf children, especially those with CI’s, are hearing, understanding, and discriminating all the sounds in the English language. They are hearing and understanding at whisper levels.”
Deaf kids can hear and understand? Certainly not at 100 percent. Some couldn’t hear some whispers. Some could NOT even hear music as they were hoping to hear when they decided to get C.I. when they were accustomed to hear the music before receiving C.I.
You don’t seem to grasp the concept on C.I. being not able to work well for MOST children. We all need to find the exact statistics on the numbers of children being able to hear 100 percent with C.I. I stress the operative word, “100 percent.” I’m sure most of you would say “Impossible.” I would’ve said, “There you go.”
But that is not the point anyway, Miss Kat’s Mom since I do admire you with Kat and her ASL/AVT and “misadventures” at any place. Not that “misadventures” are bad…I mean in a good way. Your daughter has the best of world in both ASL and spoken English as long as she feels comfortable. Just think of others who may not be feeling very comfortable and happy with AVT and using C.I. all the times. Once some reach adulthood, some would yank C.I. out and go Deaf for good…sometimes to despite their parents and/or even curious about Deaf Community once they discover it. It’s more like a road to yellow brick road to find a Wizard of Deaf Community. Heh…..
Damn I can’t believe that I’ve wandered off of this subject, let’s get back to the Bill at hand. We don’t mean ASL only in the bill. No, Non, nyet, nope, iie, you get the drift of “no” word. We all agree that EVERY option to ASL, AVT, oral, TC, Sim-Com, so on. That is no problem. But we need them to understand that ASL is the true language and should be part of bilingual to English. I don’t know if you ever heard of Hispanic Deaf people who use ASL would call VRS to request Spanish speaking relay interpreter to speak to any of the Spanish speaking relatives while translating in pure ASL, not even Spanish sign language nor anything else than ASL. THAT IS BILINGUAL….well, somewhat trilingual.
That is the BIGGEST point of all!
Ciao, Misha (Insane or Sane as you choose to)
Comment by Candy on May 4, 2010 at 1:40 am
Patti,
You said:
It is incredibly hard to get these FACTS but we have some.
I know, because I’ve search for it and I have not found anything. There was some problem with the electrode for a specific AB implant, but that’s about it. Nothing that puts a person’s life in danger or changes a person’s quality of life. In the meantime, how about sharing “some” facts. Why withhold critical informaton from the public? AFA – I thought their mission was to combat audism. I didn’t know they saw CI as an audist tool.
Comment by patti on May 4, 2010 at 7:54 am
MKM
thanks for sharing more information.
Pls clarify – when you say that Miss Kats is pulled out of her oral / aural only classroom to receive ASL therapy – this service is provided for her IN the oral school?
re: Bi-Bi schools. I have seen Deaf children speaking in Bi-Bi schools just like ur miss kats can sign with out being hit with a ruler any more (thank goodness), i have seen Deaf kids talking and listening in bi-bi schools.
I have also seen them get on-site speech and auditory services. Does miss kats get onsite ASL services in her oral program
also its important to note that most Deaf schools are really sim-com programs where most of the teachers use Spoken English with some form of English based sign system and the students pretty much do whatever they are familiar with.
i am a bit puzzled re: how she can hear without any lurching or grasping yet she is language delayed. Does she have a processing disability.
if i should be heading over to ur blog to read more so u dont have to re-type stuff – pls put the url here. again many thanks for ur dialogue
i do love how much u love ur daughter that in itself is priceless
i am hoping that since throughout the history of human kind the work has predominately been to morph the minority into being as majority like as possible and that has never served humanity well (neither the dominant nor the minority cultures well and especially not bio-diversity), that in this day and age when we see the value of pluralism the push to help Deaf kids play on the playground does not result in the push to deny Deaf kids to play with other Deaf kids too
we must also recognize that the children of today learn a great deal from raising their own Hearing hands and gesturing a little. there are many GOOD Hearing children out there and adults – folks of good will that if we say – would you like to learn sign they eagerly say yes
it is paradoxical that as signing becomes more and more popular and acceptable and enjoyed in popular culture we see a stronger push for Deaf children not to be Deaf.
im not talking about miss kat’s here but what is generally happening across the globe
peace
patti
Comment by patti on May 4, 2010 at 8:13 am
Candy
Advanced bionics (which was the banner link and logo at the top of AG Bell’s website until just a few weeks ago) is not the only CI co. that has had problems
re: difficulties getting answers – WHY IS THAT?
re: answers and facts – we r compiling them love. patience patience. i know patience ain’t me strong point either
re: audism and CI
u and i have tousled before in the blogsphere and if i remember right, one of the run ins / misunderstandings was because sometimes i read ur questions to be rhetorical which can make them appear to be baiting and switching.
so i will have to return the favor of your non-question with a question of my own. What is the definition of audism?
what is the purpose of a CI?
are they related?
now before you go running and screaming to mount an attack, please know that i have read works by scholars like bell hooks that say that the straightening of African-American women’s hair and their children’s hair is rooted in a belief that too look “white” is right and that in and of itself is a form of internalized racism
i have read books by feminist scholars (of whom bell hooks is one also) that explain how breast implants are a result of internalized sexism
does this make michelle obama a bad mother. (re: hair straightening) NO NO NO
she rocks
truly she does
but Black is Beautiful and folks shouldnt have to feel they must put lots of chemicals on their children’s hair to make it do what its not meant to do
I myself have some internalized sexism that i exert on myself and my children from time to time. none of them having to do with hair as my friend once looked at our household and asked “does anyone in this family own a brush.”
“isms” are as bad and as good (“feminism” being a good think in my book) are as bad or good as the wearer
we must be willing to see the sexism, audism, racism embedded in alot of our social practices and decision making and how that affects us individually and socially
please note – because i at times fall pray to heterosexualism, racism, classism etc – that does not make me a homophobe or a racist or a sexist etc – it makes me human and if i catch meself at these bad tricks and i correct my path – it makes me hopeful and happy
so i dont wanna see anyone throwing around the word audist – that should totally be reserved for folks who have a PROVEN track record of audism and it should be used very sparingly
Segregation in the South sucked big time but not everyone was a segregationist – even the folks who brought into the system, even the African-American parents who misguidingly communicated to their children it was better to be white than to be black – we shall over come when we have the “spiritual audacity to assert our somebodyness” it is ok to be Deaf
it really is
just as it is ok to be a woman, or gay, or an immigrant, or blind, or African-American. Who knows some day you might just grow up to be president.
look forward to your answer Candy
much peace
patti
Comment by Barb DiGi on May 4, 2010 at 9:31 am
MKM,
I am sorry to learn that your daughter is still pretty far behind in language. My Deaf children who focused on ASL and English literacy (print, fingerspelling) while growing up have not experienced a lag in language, both ASL and English, but way ahead. My daughter who is now 11 and has been developing speech skills nicely and quickly. It has confirmed to me (along with Rachel’s daughter, Leah) that it is a myth to be stuck with the idea that the earlier speech starts, the better.
From the article, “Where Does Speech Fit In?”:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:whR-uBEa36EJ:ccdam.gallaudet.edu/pdf/20090729-0003.pdf+where+does+speech+fit+in+sharon+graney&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjYiKatDwNzmrvCe8B-OfoaeAPt-m9BQKVSQ8Qmo7bx8NTOxz5bau-xAdgYmT2fvrxqrtqmPpvayw7i3i45aUaRElAhFncAjFXvHpOFKCowW8bE-g6eic791Kanu30zJf2d19Fm&sig=AHIEtbRmi2PAJNRJzYJfSjDMO-BMKHa0sw
“For a deaf or hard of hearing child who has a solid base in ASL, spoken English development becomes an easier task” If too much emphasis is placed on speech development, the child’s language and academic skills may suffer, not to mention self-esteem. Although intensive speech therapy may increase a child’s articulation skills, it may also result in decreased academic performance.” (Graney)
Fascinating that your daughter gets pulled out by an ASL specialist at CID. Is it by a Deaf teacher who is fluent in ASL? Just curious. Also I find it interesting that your daughter chose to sign in an oral school.
According to the article, when talking about where “ASL is the primary language of instruction, some worry that a deaf or hard of hearing child will not receive enough exposure to spoken English. It may be true that the overall amount of exposure to spoken English will be less during the hours the child is in bi-bi school, however, the quality of that exposure for children who have a fuller understanding of the communication process and of each language may actually be greater.”
I am all for maximizing each child’s communication/language skills but it is a matter of how to approach it. Based on numerous research and real life experiences with my Deaf children and 18 years of teaching to all walks of Deaf children, I can verify that bridging ASL to English in academic instruction is the most important path for success. If a school uses ASL and English (written, spoken) at a certain amount of time and that there is no bridging in instruction, then it is invalid. I work with teachers teaching English to incorporate ASL in lessons that the students are able to comprehend and grasp the concept quickly. I am proud to say that many, I mean many, of the students have moved up at least two levels in Fountas and Pinnell assessment. It is truly amazing to see this happening!
What’s more I would not call it “forbidding” spoken English in the classrooms when ASL is used as a language of instruction. ASL is a fully-accessible language for classroom instruction and that most of their childhood is spent outside the classroom that tends to be in a spoken English environment. There is a time and place for it since it is not accessible for other Deaf students who don’t have access to sounds. There is a reason to use both languages separately and for you to keep on saying over and over that spoken English is forbidden in bi-bi schools calls for a red herring. I am involved in CAEBER and it mentioned that oracy as a part of signacy and literacy framework has its place. Forbidden? It is a far cry. Keeping it separate in time and place is what the purpose for this to happen.
Comment by Candy on May 4, 2010 at 10:08 am
Patti,
my intentions are usually simple. So, I’m chuckling at your assumptions of me.
I think audism is crap. I do however acknowledge that deaf people do experience oppression. We can rise above that without using the word audism as a weapon
CI is a tool that enables people to hear better. Way better than a hearing aid. Anyone that wears a hearing aid will understand that it is not a tool of oppression. I love my hearing aids.
Keep things simple, Patti and you’ll be able to reach out more.
Comment by patti on May 4, 2010 at 3:44 pm
and some folks LOVE their breast implants
doesnt mean they aint embedded in “isms”
re: keeping things simple – yes i do love that
gandhi said “live simply so that others may simple live”
perhaps you are familiar with the case of Emma and her dad where their right to privacy (Emma’s own body) and their liberties are being dictated by a court order
u know the one that says she will have to wear both her CIs “all her waking hours” except for when in water or wearing a helmet
doesnt matter that one of the CI is not working and causes her pain
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20100503/LOCAL17/5030328/Essayist-cautions-parents-of-deaf-children-on-use-of-cochlear-implants
peace
patti
Comment by patti on May 4, 2010 at 3:50 pm
note: typo above re Gandhi’s quote – sorry mahatma
“Live simply so others may simply live”
re: audism – whatever u choose to call it sweetheart – it still happens and it still aint cool
Dr. Humphries defined it as “the notion that to hear is superior to being deaf”
and what is the purpose of surgically implanting devices into infants skulls at 3 mo and up? so they can hear cuz its better than them being deaf correct
connect the dots and whatever u want to call it – it still adds up to…. injustice when done against ones will
when the subject is willing and the device is faulty then we have other words for that – check out the lawsuit ruling and the FDA recall for those words cuz if im spell them out u might take issue with them
peace
patti
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 4, 2010 at 6:04 pm
My daughter is behind because she was unable to access spoken language before she was 5. Just because she can hear now, doesn’t mean she has learned the language yet. She has gained 3 1/2 years of language in a year, that isn’t bad at all! She is probably a year and a half delayed at this point, but gaining everyday. She follows conversations well and can communicate her thoughts, feelings and desires.
As for CI’s not working well for most kids, I disagree. I know about 50 kids who have CI’s. I know 3 who can not access spoken language with them. In my experience they work very well, for nearly every child.
I implanted my child because I felt like having access to spoken language would give her more opportunities. That was all. I wanted to give her as many tools and choices as I could.
Yes, my daughter receives ASL services on site at her oral school.(It is not CID, we are going there for summer school) She receives them as a pull out service. A teacher of the Deaf from the bi-bi school comes to the oral school and does her pull out.
At her bi-bi school spoken language was forbidden in the classroom. A child could have up to 20 minutes a week of pull out speech and ZERO auditory training. (They said they they would NOT allow auditory rehab because it goes against the philosophy of a visual school.) Teachers are not allowed to voice. Everything is done in sign. The teacher will show a written word, sign it, fingerspell it, sign the sentence in ASL, and then in English, but it is NEVER tied to spoken English. They started oracy last year, but it hasn’t amounted to any sort of change is services or philosophy.
Comment by patti on May 4, 2010 at 8:10 pm
MKM
I really thank you for coming back and sharing more
Im kinda confused about how u write in this comment thread that your daughter is allowed to sign in her oral program but they will not sign back to her cuz when i went over to ur blogsite you explain how Miss Kat’s was not happy at school and was being told not to sign. You explain that you talked to the teacher and the teacher confirmed that she did not want Miss Kat’s signing in the classroom.
also re: Ms. Kat’s language delay – this delay is in her spoken language correct? or does she have a delay in her signed language also?
Last year I met a Hearing mom who has a Deaf daughter with bilateral implants. She said that her daughter heard very well with the implants but at the same time she was asking about ASL. Should she could she give her daughter ASL also. I think you would be a good mom for her to meet but I dont have her contact information. She asked about a type of combined program – she asked if it would be possible to have 1/2 the day be in Spoken English and 1/2 the day to be in ASL.
I have never heard of such a program out there like that. I have never seen such an option offered. Maybe you could try to get that set up because you seem to be a very committed and involved mom. You are willing to pay for summer oral programs, getting a 2nd implant for your daughter (not sure if it will be with Advanced Bionics again) and have concerns about the Supt of the school for the Deaf being a big oral advocate.
Just seems to me that you could probably move mountains if you wanted to. Really u r very dedicated and u have really done alot of advocacy and investigation.
if i have the right idea of the bi-bi school in ur area – they say:
Spoken English: As an important component of learning English, Spoken English, speech, and lip-reading is offered at XXX as a related service through the IEP process and taught as a skill separate from classroom instruction. Emphasis is placed as speech being a skill that will aid in the students’ communication with hearing society.
You are saying you feel that auditory clinic services during her school day are also paramount to you right now?
It is sad to see you feel you have to pick an either / or.
THAT IS A HORRIBLY HARD POSITION FOR YOU TO BE IN.
I am glad that you continue to bring your daughter to events with her Deaf friends and ASL community members .
I have heard from many parents (Deaf and Hearing that they have had a great deal of trouble getting ASL services – bi-bi services for their children). I have heard from many parents that they have been very pressured to get CIs for their children.
I really wish it didn’t have to be so hard. I do wish you and your family and most especially Miss Kat all the best on your journey.
peace
Patti
Comment by Joseph Pietro Riolo on May 4, 2010 at 8:39 pm
To Miss Kat’s Mom: I cringed to see you being harshly quizzed by some commenters as if you are placed under a microscope but I am impressed with how well you responded their comments. Being a parent is a hard job and defending and justifying your decisions are even much harder. Hang in there, my neighbor.
To White Ghost: The situation that you presented brings us into the realm of value system (or morality). (“Value system” is a very broad term that includes morality but is not limited to morality itself.) The information about genes carrying diseases or defects is usually factual that is gleaned from the scientific researches. For example, it is known that there are some diseases that are caused solely by X or Y chromosome although the number of diseases caused by Y chromosome is very small when it is compared against the number of diseases that are caused by X chromosome. These facts can be presented to the parents in neutral way. However, how parents handle and use these facts is largely driven by their own personal value systems. Ideally, the professionals should be impartial as much as possible so that they will not influence the parents with their own value systems. In practice, this is easier said than done.
To Mr. John F. Egbert,
We never meet in person and you do not know me at personal level and I do not know you at personal level. How can writing assumptions about me be beneficial?
Joseph Pietro Riolo
josephpietrojeungriolo@gmail.com
Public domain notice: I put all of my expressions in this post in the public domain.
Comment by Miss Kat's Mom on May 4, 2010 at 8:50 pm
We did have some trouble with Miss Kat being unhappy at school right before Christmas. We discovered the problem was the school christmas program. They were practicing all the time and the deaf kids were frustrated because it was all singing.
The teacher asks Miss Kat to use spoken language in class when she can, but she does sign when there is a misunderstanding or something like that.
We have discussed a split placement with half days at the bi-bi school and the other half in an oral classroom. We were told no.
The school will not offer any sort of auditory (listening) therapy. They say it is against their philosophy. They will provide speech therapy, to teach phrases and lipreading, but not fluent spoken language through listening and speaking. All of Miss Kat’s therapy at the school was SIM-COM.
Comment by White Ghost on May 4, 2010 at 9:01 pm
JPR –
“Ideally the professionals should be impartial as much as possible so that they will not influence the parents with their own systems. In practice, this is easier said than done.”
yes, it applies to audiologists that provides many good resources in a professional way, however, it may be very difficult for other deaf people to understand what the audiologists’ positions are doing for the parents of newly diagnosted (spell?) infants. That’s because they could not trust audiologists’ instincts. That’s the huge problem…..
Comment by Barb DiGi on May 5, 2010 at 10:05 am
It has nothing to do with trusting the audiologists’ instincts, it has to do with their training and background since most of them do not take courses in ASL and Deaf culture. Only a few audiologists (I have several friends who are audiologists) took interest to go beyond the “expectations” to learn ASL at their own voluntary time since it is not required for them to take such courses when getting a degree and a license.
Comment by Barb DiGi on May 5, 2010 at 10:12 am
Just because a Deaf child not having access to spoken language doesn’t mean he or she is doomed to be behind with language development unless ASL is not in the picture. My non-implanted Deaf children was and still is not behind with both languages because they had access to ASL and literacy English (reading, writing and fingerspelling).
Comment by Barb DiGi on May 5, 2010 at 10:25 am
Thank you MKM for taking the time to explain as I can see your dilemma. I just want to clarify that not all bi-bi schools are alike that it is not true for ASL to be “forbidden” in the classroom. I see that you use the word forbidden again and again in regards to spoken language when using ASL in the classroom that leaves me in a perplexed position since I work in this kind of environment.
I just hope that my explanation for keeping two languages separate that each language has a time and place to be used in order to prevent code-mixing or confusion of mixing both languages together which is one of the reasons why Deaf Education using Total Communication such as Sim-Com, SEE and Signed English has failed.
MKM, I admire you taking the initiative for spearheading the balance of both languages for your Deaf daughter and I hope that I, along with that others, have contributed the value to this discussion that will help clarify the issues. All I want is to provide support from parent-to-parent since I, as a Deaf person with two successful Deaf children and a strong background in education, care to share. I applaud you for being an involved, loving parent and wish you the very best.
Bilingually yours,
Barb DiGi
Comment by Barb DiGi on May 5, 2010 at 5:43 pm
correction:
I just want to clarify that not all bi-bi schools are alike that it is not true for spoken English (not ASL) to be “forbidden” in the classrooms that use ASL.
In addition to my statement:
Historically, ASL was forbidden in the classroom since the infamous Milan 1880 and it is a rarity that ASL is allowed and spoken English is not. Sadly, more and more classes for Deaf children especially with cis are forbidden to use ASL according to AVT principle #3. Sending out this kind of message that our sign language is to be disregarded and that it is not important while studies show otherwise that the benefit is great.
Comment by Spencer on May 6, 2010 at 1:35 am
Miss Kat’s Mom–
What your school is doing is actually illegal. Call an IEP meeting and request that your daugher receive half a day in the oral program and half the day in the bi-bi program. The school CANNOT tell you no if they have both. If they want to refuse or deny your request, they will have to prove in a court of law that it is an undue burden. They must provide/meet the parents’ wants, along with the needs of the child. Teachers, principals, administrators, etc, are all there to assist the child and parents; not the other way around as many schools try to make it.
Comment by Dianrez on May 7, 2010 at 12:37 am
Thanks, Shel, for giving the opportunity for such high-quality commentators as Miss Kat’s mom and teachers of Deaf children to have their say. Certainly there is a lot to be desired of present-day schools and their support of ASL and CI’s in the same day.
I see much that comes from personal perceptions, however. Through a parent’s eyes ANY progress is seen as tremendous and miraculous, but it may not seem so through the eyes of an experienced teacher who knows how things could be far better. Where these teachers are also parents of Deaf children and some also have CI’s, that is telling.
The fact is that today’s schools for the deaf still have a way to go and the onus still falls on the parents to fill in that gap. Home enrichment and home activities dovetail with formal instruction. These are simply enriched opportunities to read, to listen to reading, to watch captioned media, to interact with other children, to learn both visually and by hearing. Trips to the store, to family outings, to hobby fairs, etc. all provide language input and coax output.
What I don’t want to see are parents that beat the drums for CI’s as if they are the answer when they are not for most kids. It does NOT make Deaf children into Hearing children. Too much gets lost in the gaps and too much has to be done in the educational environment. Even children that are said to be developing “normally” and “up to their age level” are often found to be functioning at the lower level of their classroom of 20 to 25 Hearing children. We simply don’t know all the answers and must fight those decision makers that think they do before they blindly legislate our options.
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