This is a response to Teri’s ASL vlog at FaceBook discussing her view on ramifications of walk-outs on DVTV and DeafRead. Issues raised here are the ramifications, collectivism vs individualist business model and how the Hearing majority would view us.
APPROXIMATE ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE VLOG:
Hello Teri Sentelle , I wish to respond to your vlog. There are three basic points I want to debate.
THE FIRST POINT: You mentioned us, the walk-out vloggers. You stated: We were weak for walking out of DVTV. We gave up. We hurt the Deaf community.
Hmmm. Your point of view is interesting. My response? No, not necessarily. Tayler keeps emphasizing that his DeafRead and DVTV are newspapers. Yeah, newspapers… OK, if that’s the definition he wishes to to apply to his aggregators… well, sure. That’s fine by me.
If you don’t like a newspaper, do you keep subscribing, or do you stop subscribing to the newspaper? Usually, you stop subscribing. (Oh, also, if you subscribe, you don’t have to read every article in the newspaper.) Now, supposing that we stopped subscribing, does that mean we gave up? Does that mean we are weak? Not necessarily. We can go look for another newspaper available out there. If there’s no other newspaper available, we go ahead and create our own.
At present, we are at Youtube.com. Youtube.com has a lot of issues, I agree. Some of the vlogs created out there…Hearing ones… are appalling. Some other vlogs…I cringe at. I don’t go to those vlogs. I just go to one section: Deaf vloggers section. We subscribe to each other, so we are connected. We can find each other. Some of the vlogs are found at FaceBook. Hmm. Some vlogs are scattered here and there, yeah.
You suggested that we create a new aggregator. Yes, that’s what we are now doing, but with the goal of allowing a variety of topics to be submitted, and not limited to Deaf-related ones. That was one issue you had with DeafRead, and I agree with you on that. Putting Deaf-related topics on the front, and relegating other topics to the Extra, hidden behind the front page? I don’t necessarily agree with that either, but it’s HIS (Tayler’s) newspaper.
Is DeafRead the only place for us? No! I question the premise that because it’s the only place available, we must stay there. Now, I want to make a clarification here. I still have my website, my blog there at DeafRead because I value the Deaf community as well as the parents, especially the parents! That is why I’m still there. DVTV, well, that’s a different issue. I’ve already explained the reasons for my walking out of DVTV in my other vlog.
SECOND POINT: You asked us to return and fix DVTV and DeafRead as a community. Hmmm. You made a valid point. However, there is the issue of collectivist vs. individual ownership business model. The two clash with each other. The appeal for a return of communal teamwork to reform DR/DVTV is one that fits the Deaf cultural model. By contrast, the business model is oh, so American… Hearing…model… AMERICAN. Seriously. And I’m not talking about the Japanese model, which I will discuss later.
The American model is top-down, with the leader at the top. That leader makes the final decisions that filters down to the people below him, who abides by those decisions, whether they like it or not. On the other hand, with the collective model, people make decisions together. Take the Aboriginals (Native Americans) for example. They usually make decisions on an unanimous basis, which often take time.
As for the Japanese model (which I mentioned earlier), the Honda company is successful because it doesn’t exactly follow the top-down leadership model. They incorporate feedbacks from people at the bottom who work at their company, and make improvements accordingly.
The problem with the DeafRead business model is that the leader receives feedback, but doesn’t always listen. This is a classic example of the clash between individual ownership and the collective model.
Oh and one more thing. Minorities are often collectivist-minded. Thef Black community had their Civil Rights movement. Malcolm X had a different viewpoint than MLK. Malcolm advocated violence, while MLK was all about peaceful approaches. The two leaders were so different, and yet they had the same goal… a collective one, too.
THIRD POINT: The low opinion that the Hearing group might have about us as a result of viewing our infighting. That they might consider us in need of rehabilitation.
Let’s look at the Black community again. “OH! The White people are watching us! We gotta behave!” ??? There are movies that exhibit Black on Black violence. There are White people who stereotype Blacks as being violent, awful, etc. Harlan Lane wrote in the Mask of Benevolence comparing the views people had on the African tribal people, and the views on Deaf people. The views were the same! So, must we worry about what the Hearing community thinks of us? We are just as flawed as they are! Should we be on our best behaviour because THEY are watching us, lest they attempt to rehabilitate us? Should we live in fear?
Let me summarize my points:
By walking out, we are not necessarily harming the Deaf community. That’s a matter of perspective. You are entitled to your perspective, Teri, but we don’t share the same view as you. We walked out based on our principles. That brings us to the second point: collectivism clashes with the business model, which is related to our reasons for walking out. Thirdly, and I reiterate: should we make decisions based on concerns of how the majority views us? Or, should we make decisions based on what is best for the Deaf community?
We may not all share the same views… (shrugs). That’s what makes life interesting!
FYI: All comments are moderated, so your patience is appreciated. Thank you.
If positive people leave, the neighborhood changes. I hope the owners of DR-DVTV see that listening to the good bloggers will pay off. Even if guidelines don’t change, it still is destructive to jump out because that starts a downhill slide.
The point is, it is imperative to balance off the negative bloggers rather than let them have the stage. Once they take over, it is a matter of time before they show up in other forums, too, and do the same thing again.
How to control them, if the owners/editors don’t? Ignore them. Delete them from your blogs. Give no response or exposure to their rants. Urge other bloggers to do the same and why. Don’t feed the trolls. After a time their complaints and needling become boring and nobody listens anymore. No attention means they finally dry up and blow away.
excellent vlog, very very true…didn’t think of that…collectivism & individualist…keep it up!
I was amused by the statement DR is a newspaper too ! what kind ? an edcuational and sophisticated newspaper, or a tabloid ! What it is, is a melting pot/platform for deaf and other’s frustrations, in that respect it serves a useful purpose as a safety valve, some positives are deaf that would otherwise rattle about in their own restrictive world get to know and understand people outside it, but yep, there are a lot of angry, confused, and hurt people out there. Now we know how difficult it can be for hearing to follow the cultural languge approaches, now deaf have to understand OTHER deaf who don’t sign, cannot hear, and are non cultural too.
I find the flaw in your reasoning is using the term ‘community’, I think it very much depends on how you define that. A number of others at DR use this term rather globally and it is more a ‘collection’ of various deaf people some are in different ‘communities’ to others, there is little basis for much commonality of community at present, we have to get communication right first.
Another aspect is suggesting via ‘community’ there is a ‘culture’ of deaf at DR too, there are some who are in that, and that appears to be the issue, in that they keep looking for similarities in other contributors at DR and upset this is not the case.
I know many here HATE the word ‘diversity’ and view it another word for berating deaf culture, another ‘excuse’ to sideline deaf culture, but in the worlds of hearing loss, cultural deaf will always be a minority, the only decision they have to really make, is are they prepared to share and accept those who aren’t like them ? (And vice versa of course).
We obviously, are not ready or educated enough for that yet. we have to cope with issues deaf never had before, CI’s, digital hearing aids, demise of deaf education, Genetics, integration approaches, so they are put alongside hearing on their own in many cases, and an onslaught of oral approaches too.
The issues are clearly, a lot cannot hack this, it is too much, too soon, so they retire to more closed areas, feeling the ‘diversity’ leaves them far too vulnerable again. We can’t get the genie back in the bottle, I can only suggest deaf stick it out and bear with it. Life isn’t fair, once you accept that, make the best of it.
Good morning,
I have not seen Teri’s vlog, due to my not having FB (I closed it this past summer since I rarely checked it.)
But I wanted to stay that I liked the way you presented your perspective, and you showed your willingness to listen and yet still offer your perspective in a rational way backed up with facts. Mature discussion.
Enjoy your day,
) Karen
Excellent vlog except your windows “bothersome” being too bright… keep it up!
Don’t think Teri meant that d/Deaf vloggers and commenters need to be on ‘best behavior’, or that we shouldn’t debate issues that concern us all.
Teri and many others wish that vloggers/commenters are considerate of others’ views, regardless of how different those views are. One can disagree on a topic, but when the discourse degenerates into personal attacks or snide comments, then one can guess that some other agenda is going on and it’s not really about the topic to begin with.
I ask this:
How will the deaf community truly have discourse on deaf issues if some views including those who are considered deaf, wear hearing aids or C.I.’s and use different communication modes besides ASL are not included?
It is the competition of highest cognitive processing, more rich and fluid that defines us mostly, VISUAL! : )
This is indefectibly deafinite.
Aside my malapropism (playing with words with intended humor), I question whether the experience of relying solely on modes than visual one can be that truly satisfyingly enough? I always wonder..
Well, MM… as I said: newspaper is how Tayler describes DR.
Melting pot… that is perhaps the problem here at DR. The melting pot concept is a very American thing. I think we would benefit from a mosaic style like in Canada…. though some people might say it’s ghettoizing… I disagree. The melting pot concept throws us all in ONE place and we have to sort everything out. We may not be the Deaf Community in the traditional sense, but we are an online Deaf community, albeit a divided one.
Diversity isn’t a necessarily INCLUSIVE concept… it can be exclusive, and does not take into consideration the existence of audism in the thinking… “hearing loss” is the concept of loss…a negative term. But to the Deafened… it makes sense. To us, who have been born Deaf, that is not necessarily a loss. It just IS… It is not a curse to us, though it seems to be one to you, MM.
Demise of deaf education? That’s a bit premature, don’t you think? Like a famous writer said. “Rumors of my death has been greatly exaggerated.” Or something to that effect. Genetics… oh boy… perhaps you should read my Gay and Deaf Parallel blog series, then that perhaps you could see it from another angle.
“The issues are clearly, a lot cannot hack this, it is too much, too soon, so they retire to more closed areas, feeling the ‘diversity’ leaves them far too vulnerable again. We can’t get the genie back in the bottle, I can only suggest deaf stick it out and bear with it. Life isn’t fair, once you accept that, make the best of it.”
Closed areas aren’t necessarily bad. The safe harbours are necessary. We Canadians have the safe harbours and our country hasn’t fallen into chaos. Like I said in one of my old blogs… we have ethnic clubs for people to retreat to in between interacting with the majority at large. Forced integration isn’t the best solution. Like Dianrez commented to me at HER blog, a mosaic style DeafRead isn’t a bad idea.
I have a confession, Karen. I was tagged by a friend so I was able to view it. Otherwise, I would never have seen Teri’s vlog.
Thank you for your feedback, Todd
I agree with you, Ann, that there are agendas at work, unfortunately. I do wish people would stop attacking each other. It gets on people’s nerves… including mine.
Sigh, about the exclusion of specific people… I think that occurs BOTH ways. I know I have seen a lack of respect towards ASL as a language by certain individuals, and that saddens me. I also see a lack of respect towards Deaf culture, and demand that we support integration into the hearing world. We keep getting messages hammered at us all our lives that to succeed we must assimilate… to hear and speak is more conducive to success. Some people who have that attitude DO grate on the nerves. Not everyone has that, but I hope you get what I’m trying to tell you.
Respect is definitely lacking on both sides… hence the attacks, unfortunately.
So do I, Anne Marie, so do I.
Dianrez advised:
> How to control them [negative bloggers], if the
> owners/editors don’t? Ignore them. Delete them
> from your blogs. Give no response or exposure to
> their rants. Urge other bloggers to do the same and
> why. Don’t feed the trolls. After a time their complaints
> and needling become boring and nobody listens
> anymore. No attention means they finally dry up
> and blow away.
Hi Dianrez!
One problem I am seeing with this solution is the other end of it… Several people are complaining that once in a while their post or comment “doesn’t appear” or “got killed”, and the person who “killed” it swears they did not do anything.
I am increasingly coming to believe that at least some of the time, THIS IS LITERALLY TRUE. No matter how much you might distrust the person, you cannot assume rejection because something did not show up… Sometimes the network really did eat it!
- Linda
“Sometimes the network really did eat it!”
LOL
Yeah, whodunnits of the cyberland. Wonder what they look like.
But the funny thing about the whole analogy with the newspapers, Shel, is simply this fact: even the most prominent newspapers do have an agenda. Most of them are quite clear on their positions. There is no such thing as “neutrality” in the media.
New York Times has made it very known that they are liberal by endorsing Obama and targeting Bush (the latter actually declared war on the newspaper trying everything in their power to discredit them and topple them from influence).
Washington Post has also been quite influential in terms of the liberal agenda–they do not leave the Republicans alone when they screw up.
Wall Street Journal write scathing reports against their liberal counterparts.
Huffington Post (now, that’s something along the category of DeafRead), owned by Arianna, is relentless in attacking the conservatives.
Drudge Report (another one in DeafRead’s category) takes no shame in debasing the liberals to the point of no return.
Fox News and the White House is at war with one another, one trying to suffocate the other out of credibility.
DeafRead can’t claim neutrality or having lack of an agenda. It’s always been biased against certain individuals and groups within the Deaf community. It’s kind of ironic how some of its editors demand transparency from everyone else but cannot provide it themselves.
This is simply ridiculous. It’s such a non-issue, perhaps, some people need to find something better to do with their time, yes?
Shel: There is a demise in deaf education as it used to be, and as defined the concept of culture in deaf terms, it was the educational aspect that provided the base for deaf culture, the Americans accept this. Logic says if that aspect has radically changed (And it has), then the base is shaky too).
Well I am a total ‘melting pot’ supporter, even to the extent I don’t want ethnic and racial areas doing their own thing, we need to be in the same room to meet each other, not viewed through a telescope, multiculturalism was always the very obscure description of justifying that, and has failed near 80% or more in the UK as a viable, it is a failed concept. It is a word not much else, if various cultures isolate themselves from the rest, and operate on some parallel level.
You are correct in stating I find deafness very difficult to accept and live with, I’d prefer not to be chastised for that, loss equals the disablement. I’d make no excuses for supporting research into eradication of deafness too, this is based, not on undermining the cultural aspect, but on knowing that many of our experiences of going deaf or losing hearing are so traumatic as to support that view.
Without rambling off into the issues of that, it is ‘horses for courses’ decision-wise and hopefully left to the individual to make such choices. ‘Safe Harbors’ to protect the vulnerable certainly, are those at DR ‘vulnerable’ ? I have NOT found that at all. Surely amongst the most able and educated deaf online ?
Isolation as a form of self-protection, won’t stand, deaf won’t stand for it. Our young deaf want the world the same as anyone else, that means they accept that they stand their own ground outside it, and yes, face those who make things difficult for them.
If they are to retreat to an enclave when the going gets tough. For many who acquire a deafness we do not have that luxury of ‘safe harbour’, we swim, or we drown. Would this safe harbor offer US it’s protection ? so far no, they want us left out there as well. Selfishly, what’s in it for us ?
We are each a product of our deafness, but worlds apart depending on when it manifests itself. We are talking probably on a ‘minority’ in the cultural minority for whom any sort of integration or diversity simply won’t work. Not the majority. I’d hate the discrimination excuse would be used every time.
This mess, it seems to me, boils down to the collective vs the individual, liberals vs moderates/conservatives. Personally I am leery of collectivism as it seems to me to be insular, choking, etc. Anyway, this is pretty much what this whole thing has come down to since the Walkout. Ok, I can accept that, saying it is what it is. Having said that, why is it that there’s an attempt to destroy DR/DVTV and all the while knowing full well that these same people are working on their own aggregator? Simplistic? Sure, deal with it.
Tousi, you misunderstand. There is no intention to destroy DR/DVTV. All that is requested that the R-list at DVTV be modified to include audism and protection against that. There is an inconsistency in the enforcement of the guidelines and R-List. If one went to DVTV, one will see that homophobic vlogs remain up even though they are in violation of the R-List guidelines. Audism exists in DVTV, but because the R-List doesn’t cover it, nothing is done about it. There are cyberbullies and harassers who remain even though action should have taken place. People have attempted to resolve the issues, with management, to no avail. There are other people who left quietly because they didn’t feel safe, and other reasons. Since this matter has not been resolved, there is a new aggregator under construction… not necessarily in competition with DR/DVTV. This new aggregator is, to use Tayler’s definition, merely another newspaper… but more specialized.
Hope this helps you understand. I know there are people who will disagree with the above, but…
…deal with it.
Shel of the Great White North; yours is a beautiful country! I’ve been to parts of her and I bemoan not living as close as I did while growing up.
I still respectfully hold that the real differences are found in us folks being idealists, realists, liberals, and conservatives, all in varying degrees which makes it a tall order for anyone to traverse the environment unscathed. Tayler has a tough job to do in catering to this broad spectrum of people. The problems at his sites don’t, in my estimation, come down to a couple of words like audism and deafhood because there are plenty of other words in the English language to take care of that. Maybe Tayler shouldn’t micro-manage so much but he, again, in my estimation, does so out of a sense of altruism/caring. Maybe he should just do away with the R-List and apply YouTube and Seesmic’s policies and let people grow thick skin.
This leads me to ask how this new aggregator is going to screen out people? Would I be welcomed there, just based on what I’ve been saying here?
You take care now….
Tousi,
In the two years or so that I have been involved with DR/DVTV, I and others have defended DBC, AFA, Deafhood, and attacked audism and AGBell. We have criticized DR/DVTV for its policies, but we have not attacked it or tried to destroy it. Please provide me one example where we have outright attacked DR/DVTV. When DR/DVTV failed to respond to our concerns, we peacefully walked out.
If DR/DVTV is not strong enough to stand without our presence, then that would indicate there is something wrong with DR/DVTV’s model in the first place. But again, we made our statements peacefully, and we took peaceful means to try to get DR/DVTV to listen to what we were saying.
I also want to go on record that although a few of us, including myself and Shel, are involved in the development of the new aggregator, most of the walkouts have had nothing to do with its creation or development. So again, any accusations of a conspiracy to enhance the status of the aggregator to come are unfounded.
As for how people will be screened out, we basically want people who show RESPECT for Deaf people, our language, our community, our identity. People with persistent audist attitudes may be able to comment within individual v/blogs (at the v/blogger’s discretion), but v/blogs and v/bloggers who have shown a serious lack of respect for the aforementioned things will not be included in the aggregator’s v/blog roster.