Fomenting Dissent… Really?
Posted by ShelApr 25
After having watched the blog-spat between Carl and MM, I’d like to point out something that captured my attention in Kalalau’s Blunder by MM. MM accused Carl of fomenting dissent. That stopped me dead in my tracks and caused me to mull over the situation.
“Fomenting dissent”…hmm. I will get back to that phrase in a moment. Please bear with me for now.
We all know that MM considers The Queen’s English as superior to BSL and ASL. MM’s opinion is a given. No one can argue this after having read his blog posts and comments in various other blogs. He demands access to ASL in the form of English text. He seems to be under the impression that providing access to ASL in the form of English merely requires transcribing [in the sense that some think that ASL is a manual expression of English] rather than actual time-consuming translating.
We also know that Carl considers ASL as a language in its own right, on a par with English… justifiably so. We know that Carl is of the opinion that to discuss ASL, one should use ASL. Again, justifiably so.
After all, to discuss the language of ASL using English is inadequate. That is like trying to define Chinese, or Swahili, or even LSQ (langue des signes québécoise) in English terms… you cannot do it because cultural information gets lost, or misinterpreted. You have to use ASL to discuss ASL properly, without missing out on cultural nuances, just as you have to use English (whether it be Her Majesty’s, Canadian, Australian or American…and there are distinct differences between these four dialects of the same language) to discuss English properly. All these languages come with DISTINCT cultural and regional information that is important to know in order to fully understand what the person of that language is saying.
With that said, let’s get back to “fomenting dissent”. Definitions according to these online dictionaries:
a) FOMENT:
(http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=foment)
foment: (v.) agitate: try to stir up public opinion
Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
to promote the growth or development of : rouse, incite
b) DISSENT:
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
· protest: express opposition through action or words; “dissent to the laws of the country”
· protest: the act of protesting; a public (often organized) manifestation of dissent
Put together, “fomenting dissent” would mean that Carl was fomenting a rebellion. What is Carl, that instigating troublemaker, fomenting a rebellion against? A government? Is he committing sedition? Is he breaking a law? Is he fomenting an organized protest? None of the above.
Simply put, that vexing demagogue simply refuses to translate his ASL vlogs into English text. Flog him! Call on the horses to draw and quarter him! No, throw him into the dungeon and throw away the key!
The Welsh blogger demands that Carl provide access to ASL through English text because the former does not understand either BSL or ASL. He has even appealed to the owner of DeafRead to force Carl to “provide access” to his ASL vlogs. After all, most people in the world use English.
Excuse me while I open the windows in my house to get rid of the noxious fumes of superiority in the form of language hegemony!
While I understand MM’s frustration re: access, he does not understand a few things:
1. It is not a matter of transcription. This would imply that ASL is “a manual expression of English”. That is a fallacy. ASL is a language, DISTINCT from English. Therefore, transcription is an impossibility.
2. It’s not an access issue. It’s a language issue. To provide “access” would require a COMPLETE TRANSLATION of one language into another language, rather than a simple transcription of a spoken version of a language into a written one such as the English captioning on TV.
Please view Patti Durr’s excellent comment in Tayler Mayer’s Peripheral vision of the online community, which discusses language translation as opposed to transcription.
3) Forced translation into the majority language would result in the stifling of badly needed discussions of the language ASL, in ASL. There are so few ASL text in comparison to the sheer volume of English text available for perusal.. (Yes, there is such a thing as ASL text.) Cultural issues and topics have to be discussed in the language that culture is tied to, first and foremost.
Therefore, there is a real need for a safe space for minority languages/cultures, such as ASL, for one, in the midst of a world that is heavily focused on the medical/disability view, and the supremacy of English as a dominant language.
18 comments
Comment by Dianrez on April 25, 2009 at 10:04 am
Thanks for a very learned explanation of the language differences in this controversy.
I understand Carl’s viewpoint, however think MM has a point in wanting to see Carl’s valuable remarks in English.
Swahili, in comparison, is a rich language used in Mozambique and other nations in Africa. Its people have the right to publish in Swahili, but if they want the world to understand their problems dealing with an oppressive majority, they need to also publish in English.
If they want the world to appreciate their ethnic and cultural richness, they need to publish both in Swahili and English so that outsiders can understand their love of the language. Copping out by saying that translation is impossible or difficult actually blocks this appreciation.
Publishing in both also captures for posterity a snapshot of the culture as it is today and makes it accessible to the world now and in the future.
It’s worth the work. To do otherwise makes Deaf people a closed, insular society that is easily misunderstood and can be lost to Time for lack of access.
Comment by Don G. on April 25, 2009 at 10:07 am
Good points, Shel.
But you have to admit, this spa is amusing to watch….
Comment by MM on April 25, 2009 at 12:52 pm
If Carl had published the repsonse to you I gave on his blog Shel, then you wouldn’t have had to write this one. Unfortunately he selectively censors out points he cannot rspond to, and I can’t control that aspect.
I responded on muown blog because Carl refused response there, so he promoted the ‘fomented’ the dissent that followed. I asked, as Carl was eminently able to use text, I woudl appreciate it if he gave me an ‘In’ to what the ‘discussions’ were about, I was genuinely interested in the ASL he wsa talking about, I got nil repsonse at all.
What followed was me questioning why he chose to target me as an ignaranus straight after, this is an acedemic poing fun at me as a deaf person, whilst, I gave all credit to his inteloigence and made a point of NOT taling down to him I thank you if you have the courage to print my response. For those of you who suggest I ‘hide’ behind an ‘MM’ title and anon, I explained this in some considerable detail long ago at deaf.read, DOn G has my name I freely gave it when he asked. IT just occurs I am better recognsised as a blogger online via the M suffix, so stayed with it.
If you want my name e-mail me, I’ll send it. LIke all languages to start with, you need that helping hand to get started, that’s is all I asked for.
Comment by Tony Nicholas on April 25, 2009 at 5:54 pm
MM, can’t read ASL, so how does he know what Carl is saying?
Comment by JR on April 25, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Dianrez, remember that Carl has said again and again that his blogs aren’t for the majority, but to educate others.
Shel, excellent blog and truly important to remember that ASL doesn’t function grammatically the same as English. It would be like a fish asking a land mammal for an in.
Comment by MM on April 25, 2009 at 9:36 pm
I didn’t find it amusing Don, sad really.
Comment by Carl Schroeder on April 26, 2009 at 12:03 am
Can we “teach” empathy if one thinks ASL can be described in Queen’s English? I don’t believe that the clearer we describe ASL in another language, the better ASL will be, because such ASL, in my educational presumption and presupposition, will always be ASL. To have empathy, must MM first have to have experienced harrowed and vulnerable moments in Queen’s English–to have experienced tragedy, or at least some moments of humiliation, of marginalization–ever to be able to feel the pain of those who use ASL? To understand the language bigotry, does MM have to be aware that he possibly harbors it himself, and even may have acted on it? I could easily anticipate answers, which is indeed sad.
I am the editor of Kalalau’s Korner, and it is not for everyone.
Comment by Don G. on April 26, 2009 at 12:59 am
That’s what I find amusing, MM…. two fully-grown men, of roughly similar age, sniping at each other like schoolchildren.
To be honest, I do agree with you that if Carl wants to insult you, he should at least give you the opportunity to know how you were insulted. But, it is his vlog, and it is his right to decide whether to provide any translation or not. And as Shel points out, there are issues involved in translating one language into another.
Comment by Shel on April 26, 2009 at 6:28 am
MM,
I did not publish your latest comment as I would like people to stick to the topic at hand, and remain civil.
Thank you!
Shel
Comment by Shel on April 26, 2009 at 7:00 am
To all commenters, thank you for leaving a comment here!
Dianrez,
I would like to clarify: I did not say translation was impossible, but I did say TRANSCRIPTION is impossible for ASL, as ASL is based on English.
Don G,
I do see your point about why you found the spat amusing due to the behaviours that occurred.
MM,
Firstly, when I published your first comment, it had absolutely nothing to do with courage. Rather, I allowed you to have your say here especially since you figured in my blog.
Unfortunately, I’m not able to email you as blogspot.com apparently doesn’t allow me to obtain your email address. If you wish to give it to me, you can do so on my blog, and I can email you from there, and delete that information rather than publish it on my blog.
Secondly, you would do well to listen to what Carl had to say in his comment here, and reflect upon that. I realize there are hard feelings between you and Carl, but I would hope you would open your mind and heart this time because he gave valid points about experiencing tragedy, humilation, and marginalization to understand language bigotry. He is trying to educate you on that point. Self-examination is always a good idea for each of us.
JR,
You are quite correct that ASL and English are quite different grammatically, so that simply supports my point about the transcription issue.
You made an interesting analogy, by the way.
Carl,
Thank you for adding your points, which are valid as I’ve just told MM. I just wish I had thought of that for my blog post.
I’m aware Kalalau’s Korner is set up for a specific audience… the Deaf… or ASL people. Speaking of which, my kids miss your vlogs that were geared towards children such as the arm twisting things, and ASL Dragon stories. I do miss those, too.
Shel
Comment by Shel on April 26, 2009 at 7:03 am
Dianrez, I just realized my typo.
I meant to say that transcription is impossible for ASL, as ASL is NOT based on English.
My apologies for the confusion.
Shel
Comment by Jean Boutcher on April 26, 2009 at 8:16 am
Shel,
An excellent blogpost.
Not many books are accurately, correctly, or properly translated into English from foreign languages according to Daddy who was an international foreign language translator in Europe for Washington, He had done a number of exegeses on books translated in English from foreign languages by some translators. Some of early works, as he noted, were incorrectly translated from foreign languages into English LITERALLY instead of EQUIVALENTLY; thereby causing the loss of the original meanings of velvetly rich idioms (in Boris Pasternak’s “Doctor Zhivago”, for one). Not only that, but Daddy also accounted for the loss of the rich original French idioms in the Moliére plays unbeknowst to some Broadway critics — idioms that are supposed to be much more bellylaughing. and much funnier.
Back to square one, it is not easy for a signer who is not proficient in English to accuately translate from ASL into English. Can a xenophobically monolingual American signer really translate “Train finish zoom sorry”? A person proficient in bilinual ASL and English can easily (translate EQUIVALENTLY : “Sorry, but I will not tell you what John Doe has said because you did not pay to what he has said. Your fault!”) Would the Rim understand Carl’s translation from his ASL vlogs nto English? Most unlikely in that the Rim does not use BSL and ASL.
Someone has said above that ASL is not grammatical. Indeed, ASL does meet the universal rules of grammar (Chomsky, 1957). It is, therefore, wrong to say that ASL is ungrammatical sans structure and syntax. It is. Anyone who denies it as a grammatical lanuage is not a scholar in linguistics. ASL is a unique language and has since 1960s become one of the most unique languages (Pinker, 1994).
Comment by MM on April 26, 2009 at 2:40 pm
I think the ASL-English thing HAS to be discussed properly by people knowledgeable from both sides and not just one. Or you just get ‘my way or the highway responses’. As I am aware all BSL in my country is taught using English grammar and associated text material. That is simply because no adult deaf attend sign language lessons… so yes, English has a considerably bearing on sign here…. we don’t ‘do’ immersion classes here either. Deaf won’t cooperate. Until the ‘opposing’ sides sit down and thrash out what bugs them, we will see no sign advance and not much cooperation either. CI’s or ASL something has GOT to give. Don G has my e-mail, I don’t have hotmail.
Comment by Shel on April 26, 2009 at 7:33 pm
Indeed, Jean. Thank you for sharing your father’s experience as translator. That is pretty much applicable here. One has to understand the language AND culture of a given people before one can properly translate. It is not enough to understand a language alone. One must understand the culture that is inextricably tied to language first.
Shel
Comment by Shel on April 26, 2009 at 7:40 pm
MM. I would have to check with a BSL person about the grammar thing. If, based on a BSL comedy which I viewed a year or two ago, then I would have to say BSL is not completely based on English as I have seen nonmanual grammar signals and classifiers used that is unique to BSL. Therefore, I would think twice before making a blanket statement about BSL. As I don’t know BSL, I cannot discuss it in depth.
What do you mean Deaf won’t coomperate in relation to immersion classes?
ASL has to be discussed in ASL BEFORE it can be discussed in English as there is the very real danger of bastardization or creolization of ASL with English thrown in.
CI is a piece of technology, and NOT a language, therefore has no place in THIS particular discussion. CI will be discussed in another blog posting…simply not in this one.
Shel
Comment by Jean Boutcher on April 26, 2009 at 8:39 pm
MM says:
“As I am aware all BSL in my country is taught using English grammar and associated text material.”
If in this regard, it should have been called “SEB” instead of “BSL”. SEB means “Signing Exact British”. SEB is equivalent of SEE#1 and SEE#2 in the USA.
Comment by MM on April 27, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Basically Shel, immersion teaching demands hearing learners and deaf people interact directly with each other, over time, and in the natural deaf environment. I’ve advocated the reverse too, to no avail !
Deaf clubs where many deaf people meet up, oppose such tactics, and say this is imposing on their social time, or impinging on their deaf ‘space’ or even the feel like guinea pigs….
There is no compulsary requirement for hearing learners of sign language to do this ‘immersion’ and gain direct experience to add to their skills as terps, or simply those who want to work with the deaf. A lot ask for it…but often it just doesn’t happen.
Therefore it must follow sign tuition is incomplete without that experience, a terp can gain academic sign skills and pass exams and go straight to the street and work with that, while having no direct experience.
If they meet a signer who signs nothing like the tutors they had….
If you learn a ‘trade’ or vocation, then an element of working in the field is a prime requirement, why not working with deaf ? but if deaf won’t go with it…. then the experience has to be gained the hard way, and by trial and error…
Comment by Tousi on August 10, 2009 at 12:14 pm
I wonder if this means we cannot or Carl cannot be used to educate the wider world about deaf education and it’s problems along with a host of other things regarding deaf life?